Hey, welcome to this week’s episode of Contrails and Cocktails. Our guest this week is Jeffrey and founder of Chief Executive Air. Just three quick things about Jeffrey. He makes aviation work from a business perspective. He’s innovative and open-minded, and he is also a great networker. So we’re going to hear a lot about that in this episode. Three quick things about Mark Parry, who is the host of Contrails and Cocktails. We met Mark through Jeremy Cox. If you know Jeremy, which everybody knows Jeremy Cox or knew Jeremy Cox, he passed away earlier this year, but was one of the great networkers in the industry that knew everybody and made a great effort to make those connections and to really help everyone succeed. And I think Mark has a lot of those same qualities, but he’s like as different as a person from Jeremy as you could expect any two people to be. Still amazing. So Mark is very precise and exacting in his expectations. He can spot a typo a million miles away, and he can see a problem coming a million miles away. And he’s also a great connector. He’s referred a lot of people to us and to the Organization of Flying Adjusters. And he was smart enough to start this podcast as a way to network in the industry. And of course, I’m Paula Williams with ABCI. We help aviation companies sell more of their products and services. And we do that through excellent, deep, thoughtful, helpful content that I think we get better than any of the other marketing agencies in this space. So now you know the players, let’s dive into the conversation.
Mark Parry with Global Aircraft Group, certified aircraft appraisals for financial, IRS legal, legal cases, expert witness, also organization flying adjusters, and aviation and then also maintenance oversight, pre-buys, etc. on business jets. Do you have any specific aircraft type that you specialize in? Well my background was on Challengers. I was at Bombardier for a long time. Yeah, I’m a big fan of the Challenger. Well, but then when I went into appraising, I started appraising general aviation aircraft. And so now I have a really good feel. When you appraise and start doing the general aviation stuff so it really broadens your horizon and direct expertise, et cetera. Very cool. on indirect expertise, et cetera.
But I prefer to be in the business jet realm.
That’s my background. That’s very cool. So my name is Jeffrey Menaged, and the name of my company is Chief Executive Air
And I help people buy, sell, and own private vets. So what a typical engagement looks like is we deal with primarily high net worth and ultra high net worth individuals and mid to large size corporations that use private aviation services. They’re considering buying a jet. They’re not sure if it makes sense for them, what kind of jet they need, how much it will cost. So I come in, we do a needs assessment, sort of figure out what their typical travel pattern and profile looks like. We make some recommendations on specific aircraft that would meet their needs. Then we show them a couple of budgets. One is what an acquisition would cost, the other is what the plane would cost to operate on an ongoing basis. And if they decide that it’s something they want to go ahead with, then we go ahead into the market, find them a plane. We can do everything from tender an offer, negotiate a contract, oversee the pre-purchase and delivery. And then the goal is to maintain a relationship with the owner post-closing where we manage the asset on the owner’s behalf on a day-to-day basis. We have partnerships with a couple of license, you know, like full-size management companies and licensed air carriers. And so we put the plane for the most part in the charter programs. The owners fly between 100 and 200 hours a year. Charter offsets a big percentage of their fixed costs so that when they fly, it costs them closer to their direct operating costs. And we manage the plane as a business on a day-to-day basis to make sure that the decisions that are made with regard to operations represent the best interests of the owner and not necessarily the best
And so right now I have a fleet of six planes that I do this on. We have a Hawker 900 XP. We have two Challenger 604s and then three Gulfstreams, a G400, a G5, and a G500. And I’ve been in aviation for over 20 years. I’ve been on the business for about seven. And that’s something that I enjoy, good at, I think.
Great. Apparently your client thinks so.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I haven’t gotten fired by any of them yet, so I must be doing a good job. That’s usually a good barometer.
So have you seen, like in the last couple of years, that the demographics of people seeking plane ownership or seeking charter, has changed? You know, you’re getting a lot of first-time charters or first-time buyers?
So, on the buyer side, I deal primarily with first-time buyers. Okay. Because where I provide the most benefit is for someone who doesn’t really know how much it costs to own or operate a plane, so whoever already owns a plane kind of knows from personal experience. But there are certain projects we’ve brought in where people think it costs them too much and our operations are running efficiently and we could certainly issue an opinion and give them some pointers.
But for the most part, it’s first-time buyers. On the charter side, I could say that during 2021 through to 2022, we saw a tremendous this influx of new customers. We’re looking to charter because that’s the entry-level way to get on a private jet. And what we found is that those people that were new to the market that came out of either convenience or fear of wanting to go to a regular airport, we found that for the most part they plan to continue using private aviation services. It may not be something that they use every time they travel, but certainly on occasions where it makes sense, I think that the market has expanded to a broader footprint of customers. It’s just a natural progression of, like you start chartering and then works out and you charter more, and then eventually you charter so much, you’re like, well, why don’t I buy a plane? That’s where you start to look at fractions and all aircraft ownership and check cards and a bunch of different other ways to purchase the service. We’ve definitely seen a big expansion. We’re basically expected to.
Yeah, they say everything is sounds like a luxury until you’ve tried it once.
And then once you’ve ever been on a Lear 35, but out of all the adjectives you would use to describe that experience, luxurious is definitely not one of them.
Yeah, that’s true.
It’s a small jet, the cabin height is 4’6″, you have to literally crawl to get into the lavatory. And it’s more about convenience than anything else. Yeah, that’s true. else. Yeah. You know, people, you know, where do you live, Paula? Where are you based? Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City, you happen to live in a city that has a tremendous airport, which is the major international hub. And you could probably go anywhere in your direct flight in the United States of America and most places in the world. But people that don’t live close to a hub usually have to take two flights to go somewhere relatively close. So if you’re going from Missouri to Nebraska, drive maybe six hours. By the time you fly and connect and get through the airports, it may be eight. But if you’re on a private plane, it would take you like an hour. So in those instances, small aircraft makes sense because it’s more about saving time. And that’s really more applicable to people that They do much popular areas without have access to But it’s not always about luxury, you know a lot of times it’s just about you know, managing your time and reliability No ease of travel. Yeah, if you have a one-hour meeting, it’s either a six-hour flight or an eight-hour drive away No, you probably Will be taking that meeting you try and zoom or you’ll try and do a phone call or something. It’s not a meeting.
Yeah, that’s for sure.
You’re on a plane all of a sudden, that one hour meeting makes sense because, you know, you can be for an hour and a half waiting to get there and from there, you know, dinner, lunch, dinner. So, you know, using private aviation services definitely makes the world a lot smaller.
It makes a lot more places accessible.
And it’s something that, you know, depending on, you know, your station, it’s not necessarily a luxury. It’s a tool that you use to make better use of your time.
People say that, you know, the talk about resource scarcity. At some point, everyone comes back to, well, you know, the most scarce resource is time.
And the only way to increase the amount of time you have is to spend less time doing incidental tasks.
Like traveling, right? So traveling is beautiful, but it’s the getting there that takes the time.
Exactly. And a lot of people, you know, they have fewer employees than they would like to have at this point, especially, you know, the skilled engineers and other folks. They need to get them someplace. more use of the time of the people that you have and make them happier, have them have a better work-life balance with even if they do have to climb into a Lear 35. Exactly. Get things done, get home to their kids, right? Yeah, the other thing is
that it’s a relatively simple exercise. Yeah. So typically it’s easy to figure out what value of someone’s time is, especially in the context of work, because you can take their annual salary, divide it by the number of hours they work, and that gives you a value per hour. So someone who’s making a reasonable, normal salary, all their time has a certain value. But if you have a CEO of a big company that’s making three million dollars a year, well, that’s two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a month, it’s $50,000 a week, and it’s about $1,500 an hour. So if you have him and his top executive traveling, you may have $10,000 an hour worth of payroll you can afford to have sitting in an airport because there’s no privacy, they can’t conduct other business while they’re there. So at a dead time, but if you’ve got a plane, either a charter or a company plane, you can make use of that time. They can meet, they can discuss strategy for the meeting that they’re going to, they don’t have to worry about anyone, you know, listening or overhearing what they’re saying. It becomes a lot more of a productive experience. The actual flight
becomes part of the work. Right, that’s true. Yeah, have you been doing more of
the small planes like the Lear’s and the King Air’s and things like that because
of the change in the economy? Or what’s your thought about that? Actually, I was going to mention that because I did a Falcon 900 on, it was last September, a year ago September, when they caught, you know, the jet market was still, you know, I’m saying what is exaggerated, yeah, word you want to use? And it was an older model, but they had done a lot of work to it. The interior, it was like a brand new Falcon 900. It didn’t have, it wasn’t on an engine program because of its age. And it was a struggle to get a number for that aircraft. It was built in the early 90s. But when I went to the cops for that specific time, you put everything together during the analysis process, then the different databases that I have, own proprietary database then you know the number number shows for that current market and it was pretty high higher than I actually thought before I started what’d you come up with? Well we don’t have the serial number so we don’t know what player token that’s it doesn’t matter. Exactly. We could tell the price of the serial number but not both. It’s close to five million. Yeah. Nice. And there were aircraft with comps at that time that were even higher asking prices for similar aircraft. Right, well a similar
aircraft with an engine program would have a much higher comp because the engine is a liability.
Although I crunched the numbers on what the engines were worth, it had core zone inspections and all that stuff that had been completed. I think it was on one engine anyway. But, so yeah, it takes a little bit of analysis to get the coming with a reasonable amount, you know, the actual number.
People think they’re buying an airplane with two engines, but they’re really buying two engines with an airplane attached to it. That’s true, that’s true. Well you sound like a GE guy. Let me tell you something, those guys make those guys make amazing engines, they’re incredible. They do, when I was a bombardier the GE ref at the facility used to say literally that word for word, he goes yeah we don’t care what your point is. We just power it. Yeah. We can make it. Especially on the Challenger series. The engines on the Challenger series are incredible. Yes they are and I’m dating myself but I started out as a mechanic on the 502 3C Abco Lycoming engine. Yeah. What were those on the Challenger 600? It was, yeah. It was the very beginning of when it was can it air, when it was a mechanic. Yeah, I was able to provide for my family on all those engine changes.
Yeah, and the other job, engine change is a big job. We had one of the engines on one
of our challenges had to go in for a shop visit. And I remember the maintenance director called me up and said, you’re not going to believe this, but there’s a couple of parts missing. I’m like, well, how can we continue? Like, how are we flying the engine with parts missing? And he said, oh, the GE guy was laughing. He said ours wasn’t even in bad shape. He said they’ve seen engines that come in with missing fan blades, and they still run like no problem. Oh. Which is incredible.
It’s absolutely incredible. That engine is just, it’s a miracle. It’s incredible how durable it is, how efficient it is, how well it runs, how many things could go wrong and it still runs and produces power. You don’t have a problem. It’s incredible. Well, after their experience with the Avco engine, which was, it had been and then they made it a turbo fan to it and basically experimented with it on the Challenger. It was just underpowered. But that TF34 engine on the Challengers is also on the A-10 Warthog. Oh, is there really? Yeah, oh yeah, that engine was highly had been highly tested by the US military on it was also on it forget get the debt it’s a locking aircraft but it was a sub sub chaser that they used to use and it was on that air on that military aircraft also well they got it right that’s a short right like just to put it into perspective, we have engine programs on all the planes that we operate because the engine liability can exceed a couple of million dollars and nobody wants to really take it. So, just in terms of the cost per hour, the engines on the Challenger, the hourly cost for an insurance program is somewhere around $300 an hour. On a Rolls-Royce engine that’s on a Gulfstream, it’s around $650, $700. So it’s more than double the cost per hour to pay into the maintenance protection plan for different engines. The lowest cost engine program around is on that TFE34 engine built by General Electric.
And that’s a testament to how little maintenance that it needs because they need to cover that cost. So they can afford to charge a lot less because you need a lot less maintenance because the engine is more durable. Incredible. How does that compare to like the Rolls-Royce engine that they’ve got on the Global Expresses and such? So those are around you know between $550 and $750 per engine per hour depending on the contract, how old it is, how many hours you do a year. Now the contracts eventually renew. If you have one they’re not going to cancel you ever because they can’t. But just in terms of what they’re trying to get you in, there was a big bump, I think, last year because of the flight chain issues and inflation and escalating costs. So there was an outsized increase in the hourly rate on engines in general. But the D engine on a Challenger is about half of the Rolls-Royce engine that’s on it. Well, maybe a little bit less than half.
So to take kind of a left-hand turn on you, Jeff, you were featured in Scott Manthorne’s book, The Network Effect.
Yes, I was. That came out this year, right?
Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
How did that happen?
Were you friends already or did that…
Scott has been a very dear friend for a very, very long time. I probably know him about 15 years and his thing has always been networking. Over the years he’s had a million different variations of networking. And one day he decided he was going to write a book. So he called me up and he said, I want you to be featured in my book. I said, what’s the book about? He said, it’s about networking, it’s on management, all that kind of stuff. I said, it would be my pleasure. So he did a quick interview. And I think that was the format of the book. It was mostly best practices from his best practices and then just different thoughts from a bunch of different business people on his network. It was a lot of fun. It was a fun project. He’s actually, uh, everybody that was in the book together, he does these groups. Like once a month, I’ll just do like an open zoom and what was in the book? Yeah, what was featured in the book? That’s invitation. You know, it’s just talking, networking, you know, saying hi, telling people what you do, see if there’s any synergies. Yeah, he turned he turned the book about networking into a networking group. That’s so meta.
Yeah. Yeah. You got into that project because you were a networker and then that is improving your network. And it’s just like an exponential sort of a deal. Right. All right. I don’t know if I’m a good networker.
I’m typically when I walk into a room, I can’t wait to leave. I don’t know anybody a little introverted when I go into new environments. And so, you know, it’s a funny story. The first time I actually did a networking thing, I had gone to a bunch of events and I was like in and out in five minutes because I was like, I don’t know anybody. I’m not going to just stand there in the corner. I did that a few times. It was very frustrating. So. Like about 15 years ago, at the time, Forbes magazine was still a force in the public market. And so they used to do these conferences where they were like investor conferences. They used to do them twice a year and they would do them in New York. So because I was in aviation, they figured I had a big marketing budget. They wanted me to sponsor one of these events. And they had one in New York that they invited me to so that I could check it out and see what it was all about with the hopes that I would like it and think it Was great and you know sponsor the next one so the networking event for the night was a trip around New York on Malcolm Forbes’s yacht. Oh And I said, you know what?
Once I get on this yacht, I’m stuck
Because I can’t get off.
I’m going to be forced to network.
So I went to the dock and I got on the boat and then they said, okay, we’re leaving in five minutes and I got off the boat. And I was like, you know what? It’s Malcolm Forbes’ boat. How can I like not go on it?
Like just to do it as a thing, right?
Like, you know, I was on Malcolm Forbes’ yacht.
So I got back on the boat and I ended up standing. How many people have that chance, right? Yeah. I ended up standing in the corner for about 20 minutes and I noticed I was standing next to this guy who was probably standing there for just as long as me. I’m like, hey, he’s like, hey, I’m like, you don’t know anybody either? He’s like, no. I said, what are you supposed to do with these things? And we started talking about how we didn’t love networking. And before you know it, we had a group of 10 people talking about how they didn’t like networking. Then someone came over and said, well, I love networking. Let me give you all some pointers. So we did like an on the fly class on networking. And I ended up going around the boat talking to people. And I ended up talking to a very nice gentleman who I had no idea who he was. I was talking to him for about an hour. He was so smart and so interesting. And the boat pulled into the dock. I said, well, it was nice meeting you. I hope we can keep in touch. He says, yeah, me too. He says, I don’t even know your name. I said, my name is Jeffrey. He said, I’m Wally. I said, hey Wally, where do you work? And he started laughing. And he said, I’m actually, I work at Forbes. I said, what do you do there? He said, well, I run an investor’s newsletter that goes out once a week to 20,000 investors. I said, wow, you must be really smart. That’s an important job. He says, well, I don’t know how smart I am. I got the job from my brother. I said, who’s your brother? He said, Malcolm. Malcolm Forbes.
You’re talking to Wally Forbes.
I said, you’re Wally Forbes? Wally Forbes.
We ended up friends for years.
I felt terrible.
He passed away a couple of years ago. I miss him. This was 10 years ago. Once a year for about four or five years, once or twice a year, we would meet up for lunch and talk about business and the economy, and he was such a wonderful person. But he was actually the first person I ever met networking.
Wow, that is such an amazing story. And one of the chances is probably best that you didn’t know who he was, you know, for the first time.
Yeah, I would have been nervous.
I would have gone over to him.
That is awesome. So, speaking of networking and speaking of New York, Mark has a fantastic cocktail. Can you tell us about what you put together?
Yeah, I just wanted to follow up real quick, though. That was a really interesting story about Malcolm Forbes. And then tell my Warren Buffett. I was, you know, crew chief actually early in my career and it was before Warren Buffett had bought literally the oldest Challenger and one of the oldest challengers in the fleet. They had been sitting in Saudi Arabia on the sitting for like two years and previously I’d worked on it while I was in warranty with Pepsi. Pepsi had owned it before that. So he bought it for like three or four million and then my crew we did all the maintenance. We brought it back. And then that was his main aircraft. So the chief of maintenance, we got along really good. He was in Omaha where my parents are, or were, my mom’s still there. And then he said, hey, I need a vacation. And I’ve talked to the VP of Bombardier here in Hartford. And we want you to come out and take care of the airplane for a week.” And I was like, okay. And he says, you can visit, you know, visit family and blah, blah, blah. So anyway, when I got out there, they go, yeah, well, the airplane’s got a trip and you got to go.
You know. Okay.
So, the, that aircraft, this old 600 that he had at the time. The jump suit not rated for takeoff so I had to sit in the back behind Warren Buffett. I did not know who he was. I had no idea.
How long ago was it? This is probably a while ago. Huh? This is probably a while ago. Oh yeah, yeah, I’m dating myself. He’s gotten a lot more famous since. I don’t think there’s anyone on the planet that would recognize him today.
Maybe in his early 90s. So I’m sitting behind Warren Buffett.
That was about 30 billion ago.
Yeah, about 30 billion. They said, do not talk to him. I go, well, whatever. I don’t care. And so I open up, I had brought USA Today with me and I opened it I’m going through my papers sitting behind Warren Buffett while he was going through his newspapers and he would have a stack of papers and he would go through all these papers then fold it and put it in the trash just one at a time each page a trash can and his phone and so I’m reading USA Today behind Warren Buffett and up I go in the business section, there was a half-page article on Warren Buffett.
So I joined.
Wow, what are the chances?
Was he nice?
That was a fun one.
Was he nice?
I was told not to talk to him, but yeah, he was…
I have no idea.
I’m so aggravated when they go, don’t talk to me what what am I gonna do? The chief pilot was a bodybuilder. Yeah, I listened to him too. He needs to get beat up on a private jet.
Not a good environment.
I was not going to talk to him. But on the flight back, they made the bed for him in the back. And then I sat up on the jump seat and Yeah, he came up and got his snacks and he was very friendly. I did we didn’t talk, you know, it was just It was pretty cool. It was like he’s like a very nice person
Yeah, yeah pretty interesting. Yeah, but anyway
That reminded me of that story right so let’s get to the alcohol. All right. Today’s cocktail, we’ve named it the After Burner.
What’s in it?
It’s a variant of a Cosmopolitan.
So, it has four ounces of the best vodka you can buy. Wow, that’s a lot of vodka. Or whichever is your favorite. Four ounces, that’s like half a bottle. Yeah, well you can cut it in half if you want. Okay. Two ounces of Grand Marnier, two ounces of Triple Sec, six to eight ounces of lime juice and Cranberry juice to taste and Put it in a cocktail shaker with ice and put it into your favorite martini glass with a little bit of lime for garnish Yeah I made this I mean, it’s like a jug and that’s a drink.
Like a big gulp.
This is my favorite martini glass.
Wow. So how many martinis did you get out of that recipe?
Get about, I would guess, one big one.
Oh, wow. No, I’d say about two or three. Okay. The total is 14 ounces. There you go. Martini’s usually three. Yeah. You get like four. Four. Four healthy pours. All right. We have two minutes to go get this stuff. I could probably, I think I have everything. I don’t know about the grand one yet, but let me find out. Don’t go anywhere. We can pause this, right?
Yep. Yes, we can pause this. Okay, hold on.
Is there anything I could substitute for the Grand Marnier? Just leave it out. Okay. Lime juice and cranberry, triple sec.
You don’t need to do that.
I’m leaving out the cranberry juice. I’m gonna do lime, triple sec, and vodka.
The triple sec I’m using is called dry curacao. Wow. Which is very hard to find, but it’s triple sec. I was gonna say, I haven’t seen that one.
You probably have things in New York
that we don’t have in Salt Lake City.
I told you, I’m a semi-professional mixologist, so I have a pretty well stocked. Brad Monnier, you caught me sleeping. All right, let me get some, I need some vodka and lunch.
Just gonna do a cooking show for us. This is going to be fun. I don’t think we’ve ever had a guest actually dig out their boobs before, but maybe that’s something we should
do. Yeah. Well, Jeremy did in our first podcast.
That’s true. He did. He made his also. Yeah, we talk about a master networker. Yeah. Somebody that can make
friends really easily. My buddy Joe, oh no, we did, I think we did, no he was having us, he did, well he had a cigar, he was a cigar guy, so we did the cigar. The cigar, yep. I like the Grand Marnier after steak.
You know, after dinner and if you’re networking or socializing, you can have a Grand Marnier.
So instead of the Grand Marnier, I could either use Cointreau?
I think this will probably be better instead of the Grand Marnier.
Yeah, it might be even better than Grand Marnier. Too bad you guys can’t taste these in the same room, so you can taste each other’s and see which one is better.
I’m going to mail it.
Do a cocktail off.
Yeah, send it to Paul and then we can… Right, do a taste test.
I’m going to do Triple Sec.
Yeah, don’t send it to me. I’m in Las Vegas for the convention, so it will not get there.
Are you sure you are surrounded by alcohol? I am surrounded by alcohol. That’s true. I could buy any of this stuff probably here.
What kind of glass are you serving in, a martini glass?
Yeah. All right. Well done.
Is that the NBAA? Yep, this is the fabulous Marriott in fabulous Las Vegas.
Okay, I thought you had changed your office.
No, no, this is a hotel room.
They’re not going to do that in Florida anymore, you said, huh?
No, they’re not. Next five years will be in Las Vegas. Did John from the… Yeah, we did an interview with him yesterday.
Okay. I gotta sign him a copy of an engagement letter.
I’m gonna use a coupe because my coupe holds more than my martini glasses. My
martini glasses are exactly three ounces. Okay. Yeah, they have this, a bunch of different booze shops here. You know, there’s a Lee’s Discount Liquor that has really funny, oh wow, it looks beautiful.
Yeah, Mark, show yours. What does yours look like? I think Jeff shook his more, but yours has been sitting for a bit, so.
It’s very good.
Is it good?
It’s a lemony. All right.
Awesome. Well, I’m going to be in a good mood for the rest of the day.
That’s your afterburner.
You’re ready to go.
There’s your afterburner.
Yes, sir, I am.
You know what? If you guys both send me your recipes, I will print them both in the show notes for this episode so that people can try Mark’s version versus Jeff’s version and vote.
I like it.
That’ll be fun.
Well, let me know if I won. I will do that.
So, we’ll just wrap up really quickly.
I’m Paula Williams, ABCI.
We help aviation companies sell more of their products and services, and we enjoy networking and cocktails as well. So, Paula, what do you do exactly? We do marketing for aviation companies. Aviation companies only. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies.
So, we do marketing for aviation companies.
So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies.
So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. So, we do marketing for aviation companies. Aviation companies only. So I came from the finance industry and did websites, brochures, postcards, social media, digital marketing, anything that aviation companies need. But we only do aviation companies. So it’s a lot more fun than the finance industry, I have to tell you that. Mark do you want to go next?
Yep, and just like through Paula is a aviation marketing genius. Pretty amazing. And anyways Mark Perry with Global Aircraft Group, certified aircraft appraisals, expert witness, maintenance, oversight, also insurance adjusting, the organization of flying adjusters, and I’m also a master appraiser with the organization of flying adjusters.
Awesome. And I’m Jeffrey Menadjic from Chief Executive Air. I help people buy and sell planes. I also do whole aircraft management, charters, aviation consulting. If you have a plane, you want to know if it’s running right, call me, I’ll tell you. running right, call me, I’ll tell you.
Transcribed with Cockatoo